Saturday, July 16, 2011

CSM Ignorance: Our Worst Enemy

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous then a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” -MLK

And in our case, nothing is more dangerous to us, the player base of EVE Online then an ignorant and almost stupid CSM.

Let's take the case in point.

I was reading over the minutes and found some shocking information within. Allow me to share. First, I'll direct you to Jester's blog, as he writes about the CSM ignorance and stupidity regarding the Art department. Since he's pretty much saying what I would say, I'm not going to bother to type it out, as he has already put it as eloquently as can be done. And correctly, I should add.

Which is good, because it allows me to focus on the truly shocking thing for us wormhole residents. A direct attack by the ignorant CSM on our space.

First, I'll allow you to read. Then, the analysis and virtual slap upside several of CSM egos and dreams. First, the part on page 27 of the CSM minutes.

CCP talked about removing ABC (Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite) mining sites from wormhole space at some point in the future. This may be from all wormholes, or possibly from lower class wormholes only. It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites, however the CSMs who were active in wormholes would not accept this claim without hard data to back it up.

Then later, on page 29:

Based on the comments by CCP Grayscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were suprised to learn that WH space was nullsec, and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space - or limiting them to C5 or C6 holes - but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally.

An argument was made by some CSMs that the prices of ABC ores and refined products were being crashed by "daytrippers" mining in easily-accessible wormhole space; other CSMs stated that no nerfing of ABC minerals should take place without first obtaining detailed statistics about the balance of trade for each mineral and class of wormhole.

And a little while later on page 31:

The CSM, with the exception of two members, is irked at the idea of high value ores being mined in low-end wormholes distorting the market. CCP Zulu mentioned that he considers this 'retarded' and that this will be looked into. In class 5 or 6 wormholes the position is more nuanced, and the CSM acknowledged that these minerals could be used for local production, and that they are too far from the market to distort it.


And you wonder why I called for balance on the CSM. Thank the EVE gods there were at least two people with a fucking brain in that meeting. I'm pretty sure one of them is Two-Step, the only member of CSM that I know of as being in wormhole space as a member of A-HARM. The other one I don't know who it is. But I thank you for speaking out. Seriously.

The rest of you... Shame. Shame on you for your ignorance.

“It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites.”

Seriously null bears?

And your experience in WH space is what? Extensive? Have you ever seen an asteroid belt in WH space? Oh that's right, you haven't. Of course they don't appear on your overview. Silly me.

Clearly they must not exist. So that means a shitton of ore must be coming from WH space. You know, 2499 systems that all together have slightly more population then low sec. Yeah. Those wormhole bastards are out-mining your RMT bots. Sorry.

The best part is the following: “Based on the comments by CCP Grayscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were suprised to learn that WH space was nullsec, and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space.”

That pretty much is the definition of ignorance. Let's see, you were surprised to learn that wormhole space was nullsec? And suddenly this makes you an expert on how much ore is in there? And further this then gives you right to demand a wrong be righted?

This supposed removal of ABC ore wasn't even on CCP's radar. Let me repeat that. The “supposed” removal of ABC ore was not something CCP was running past CSM. No, we have our dumbshit Null-sec resident CSM members to thank for this one. I can just see how this one went down. Allow me some creative licensing here.

CSM Null Bear: So CCP, what are you going to do about ABC ore in wormhole space?

CCP: Uh, what?

CSM Null Bear: I noticed a 33.3%, repeating of course, drop in our profit margin on our RMT mining bots. I was told wormhole space has entire fields of nothing but ABC ore.

Two-Step: Uh... what?

CCP: Um, you do realize wormhole space is null security space right?

CSM Null Bear: I.. uh... what? Null security space? WTF. I demand they lose their ABC ore.

Two-Step: Wait a minute...

CSM Null Bear: Shut up bitch, the grown-ups are talking. You're just an alternate.

(awkward silence)

CCP: Um, you want what?

CSM Null Bear: You heard me. Remove that ore or I take away my RMT bots and your game's economy crashes. They shouldn't have access to that, and its taking away from my profit margin.

CCP: Right away sir! Excellent idea!

Apparently according to the Null sec residents who have apparently never set foot in a wormhole (it must be the lack of local, it's scary-scary!!) there are just great fields of ABC asteroids as far as the eye can see. We here in wormholes can mine this stuff without worrying about reds jumping us because its super safe here. And then we all caravan it out in one hop easy exits that never change and bring it to our favorite market of choice.

I can see the guys with wormhole experience chuckling here. Meanwhile, Null Sec residents are like... “What's so funny about that????? Its true!!!”

Let's see. If I remember my last mining op, it was way back when I used to live in a C4. Our best mining field that had ABC ore had exactly 1 rock of Arkonor, 1 rock of Bistot, and 3 rocks of Crokite. And when I say rocks, I truly mean rocks. I had to zoom the camera in all the way to see them. Hell my Incursus hull was bigger then the rock. Let's just say I wasn't landing the Millennium Falcon in them.

Oh and giant Trit and Omber roids. Not exactly a fucking field as far as the eye can see of ABC ore.

And just to set the record straight Null Sec guy, we don't get jumped by reds who nicely show themselves in local first. We get jumped by people who are not red, but blow us up all the same. And we don't caravan it out. We fucking sneak that shit out so that our neighbors don't get any funny ideas like bombing us to hell and back. Or setting up check points. With HICs. Yes, bubbles work here. Idiot.

And we don't always have an easy exit. Its not like null sec 6 jumps through bridges and we're there! Some days its more then 6 jumps. Some days its 2 jumps. Some days we have a good exit to a system one jump from Jita. Other times we have a shit exit in low sec that is 10 jumps from anything resembling high security space. And depending on how deep we are in WH space, it could even be longer.

“An argument was made by some CSMs that the prices of ABC ores and refined products were being crashed by "daytrippers" mining in easily-accessible wormhole space.” and “The CSM, with the exception of two members, is irked at the idea of high value ores being mined in low-end wormholes distorting the market.”

Newsflash idiots.

First of all, there is no “easily-accessible” wormhole space. And those low security holes have so little ABC ore its not going to "dent" the market. Secondly, those “easily-accessible” holes you seem to be so fucking worried about are often very high traffic zones, as those of us living deep in C5s and C6s have to travel through them to get out. And since those of us who live in those deep holes enjoy a good gank as much as people in low sec do, we take every opportunity to do so. “Safe” mining in wormholes is a fallacy. And those that do manage it probably don't pull as much ore out as you think.

What “distorts” your precious RMT market Null Bear is the fact that we often save that ore for several days and bring it all out at once. Wormhole corps will store it, refine it, and when the sun finally shines on them that once a week or month where they have a good exit not camped by active, angry russians, they take advantage of it. By bringing it all out. Weeks and months worth of ore. And sleeper components. And T3 hulls and subs. And whatever the hell else we need to clear out and sell. Then we unceremoniously dump it off at the nearest major trade hub we find. It is that dumping that “distorts” your market.

Deal with it.

I'm sorry your money making things are getting nerfed. Don't take it out on us. We actually use that stuff. Did you think those T3's just appeared out of thin air? Many a wormhole corporation is proudly self-sufficient and works hard to make those T3's for you to buy and blow up.

To the two of you CSM members who rightly were arguing reason I salute you. To the rest of you I humbly suggest you pull your heads out of your collective asses before demanding change you know nothing about.

I'm not even mad.  Just sad really.  It saddens me that such ignorance runs rampant on the CSM.  I would tell you to contact your local CSM rep and let them know of your outrage, but I'm sure they are all unavailable for comment in null sec.


  1. Every word of the above is truth. I have been exclusively in W-Space for over a year now in both Industrial and PvP corps. There is NOTHING easy / quick / safe in a wormhole. If CCP even HAS a way to track where the minerals came from (K or W space) then they will see that the amount that makes it to market in ore or mineral form is minuscule.

    The mere fact that a mining corp might wait literally DAYS for a new Gravimetric site to "pop" is enough to put the lie to this argument.

  2. Perhaps a bit to strongly worded for my taste, but still truth.

    I lived in a C1 on my own for months. ONCE I had a 'daytripper' in there trying to mine. It was just (his) blind luck that I did not get him. He got away with probably nothing in his hold.

    I find it greatly disturbing that peole have such strong opinions on things they know nothing about. Things they even CONFESS they know nothing about. Makes me loose respect for them.

    And before the flaming starts: yeah, there is a LOT od stuff in Eve I don't know about. But then I keep my mouth shut and listen to those who do.

    Frankly I'm starting to see the CSM as a group of people that are there to further their own in-game goals. Perhaps I'm to harsh, and if it prooves I'm wrong I'll apologize.

  3. Thanks for the pointer. This was the very first major thing I pulled from the minutes, too.

    My take on it:

  4. Well said. These null-seccers clearly have no idea about w-space.

  5. Seems like the nullsec people assume wh's are the land of milk and honey :(. Maybe some of them should try living in one for a while, then they'll see exactly how hard life can be when you have to actually work for a living instead of just warping to a item on your overview, printing isk and then shipping it through alliance space to a trade hub.

  6. Great post mate! Way to spread the word!

  7. Good post, good post. /Shakes head up and down in a satisfactory manner.


  8. so you are saying that you are annoyed that csm6 is to blame that wormholes, which earn you easy 16bn isk a day when running npc sides (yes i have done that) get changed to not have as much abc ore in it?

    you think it is a good thing that your rich wormhole space is that much better than regular 0.0, isk wise?

    wake up, your the one in ignorance here.

  9. Thanks Shadai

    I really enjoyed you post, again :-)
    First of all because it is so true and 2nd. well it is just really funny...
    There is nothing worse then people pretending to know something and trying to sell it as the gospil. But funny when they get called out.

    I hope you and Jester have send a copy of your blogs to each CSM member and the CCP reps that attended the last summit.

  10. I love when people who have no idea what they are talking about advocate something that is only in the best interests of themselves. Where in the hell has this ever been a problem? They were suprised to learn wormholes contained ABCS? I mean really? Where the hell have they been!!!!

    Your post sums it all up very nicely, well done.

  11. Hey Capt Corbulo, go buy a freaking clue. Not everyone lives in C5-C6s. And you did what? Spent a full 24 hours farming a C5-C6? With cap ships? Were you a daytripper? From nullsec perhaps?

    And you don't live in a wormhole. I doubt you very seriously, sir. I think you should re-read this blog post, you overwhelmingly missed the fact that the majority of wormhole space does not come anywhere close to making the same amount of isk as nullsec space.

  12. Hmmm I find it very odd that the eve character "captain corbulo" who I think it is safe to assume is the poster "captaincorbulo" has no W-space kills, or losses. Strange indeed for someone claiming such a successful W-space life.

    Or could this be a 0.0 player furthering his own agenda? Shock!

  13. To set the record straight, I wasn't one of the two, because I wasn't at the summit. Also, I am OK with removing high value ore from C1s and C2s, as I do think you should have to venture further into w-space to get the good rewards. We were promised some actual numbers on the amount of ore mined in lower class wormholes to support the assertion that they are effecting the mineral market, and have not gotten them yet.

    (also, no - in my name, just "Two step")

  14. Just to make it clear, Two Step: my griping with this is not weather the ABC should or should not be removed from W-space. I say that is a decision that should be based on numbers, numbers as in the economy Dr. Honestly I'd rather have a lot less power to the CSM, but that is my personal opinion. Things being as they are I'll vote as that is the best I can do.

    My annoyance with this comes from the knee-jerk reaction from (some of) the CSM. It is disheartening to see that people have strong opinions regardless of admitting to knowing nothing. Disheartening and probably bad for the game as a whole. This time it showed, next time with another subject it might not show, but still opinions are put forth as gospel.

  15. I think in this case we didn't do the best job in the minutes. It was asserted by one of the CCP guys that it was a big problem. With that being said, people were totally OK with nerfing the lower class wormhole sites.

    I'm not sure what level of power you think the CSM has, but we basically have very little power, but some influence.

  16. I was one of those "daytrippers" once. I found a wormhole, snuck in a hauler and cruiser, and mined for what seemed an eternity (maybe an hour). I got out (luckily...d-scan started lighting up like a Christmas tree) and put my hard earned ore on the market.

    It wasn't worth the hassle. I made much more with the volume and high-security that care-bear land afforded me.

  17. I agree with your comments on the WH ore..

    CCP leaving the hell alone and sort out the other bugs (like nerfing nullsec sanctums to help the pve bots)

    I daytripped into a wh and mined some ABC ores.. and No there were no great fields... more like a splattering. I used the ore to build ships to sell.. not sold to make a buck

  18. This is what happends if you daytrip to our wh:

    This is what happends if you mine in a neighbouring wh of ours:

    Oh, yes, its very safe to mine whs, plz bring more mining operations!

  19. I was listening to an episode of Voices from the Void ( where Hallan interview White Tree. They talked (extensively) about the subject of removing ABC ores from wormholes and how easy it is to 'day trip' into wormholes to mine. Halfway through the episode, I had to look up the results of the most recent CSM election to make sure White Tree was really there.

    Seriously?? This is the kind of ignorance that is influencing the development of the game? It's understandable that he doesn't understand wormholes, considering he's obviously never lived (or even been?) in one. But if you don't understand it, keep your grubby little hands out of our sanctuary!